IAM914- Author Derives Lessons on Historical Leadership
Podcast Interview with Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp is Knox Massey Distinguished Professor of Marketing at the University of North Carolina’s Kenan-Flagler Business School. In a recent Stanford University study, he was ranked in the global top 0.1% across all sciences.
JB has written several books for business practitioners, his most recent one being Time to Lead: Lessons for Today’s Leaders from Bold Decisions that Changed History. In today’s time of global crisis and obvious lack of faith in leaders at all levels, more than ever, we need to – and can – learn from the great men and women in the recent and more distant past, who often faced much greater challenges. He has given executive seminars and guest lectures on all continents and to a multitude of organizations including the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School.
- CEO Hack: Taking leadership tests
- CEO Nugget: Having the motivation and resilience to overcome adversity
- CEO Defined: Leader with the ability to get the organization into the direction they want to achieve
Website: https://www.jbsteenkamp.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jan-benedict-steenkamp-bb535ab/
Full Interview:
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Transcription
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00:30 – Intro
Do you want to learn effective ways to build relationships, generate sales, and grow your business from successful entrepreneurs, startups, and CEOs without listening to a long, long, long interview? If so, you've come to the right place. Gresham Harkless values your time and is ready to share with you precisely the information you're in search of. This is the I AM CEO Podcast.
00:56 – Gresham Harkless
Hello, Hello, Hello. This is Gresh from the I AM CEO podcast and I have a very special guest on the show today. I have Jan Benedict Steenkamp of JBSteenkamp.com. JB, it's awesome to have you on the show.
01:07 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I'm glad to be there, Gash.
01:09 – Gresham Harkless:
No problem. Super excited to have you on as well, too. And before we jump in, I want to read a little bit more about JB so you can hear about all the awesome things that he's doing. JB is a Knox Massey Distinguished Professor of Marketing at the University of North Carolina's Kenan Flagler Business School. In a recent Stanford University study, he was ranked in the top 0.1 across all Sciences. JB has written several books for business practitioners, his most recent 1 being Time to Lead, Lessons for Today's Leaders from the Bold Decisions that Changed History.
In today's time of global crisis and obvious lack of faith in leaders at all levels, more than ever, we need to and can learn from the great men and women in the recent and more distant past who have faced much greater challenges. He has given executive seminars and guest lectures on all continents to a multitude of organizations including the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. JB, are you ready to speak to the I AM CEO community?
[restrict paid=”true”]
02:03 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I am absolutely ready. Thank you for having me on the show.
02:06 – Gresham Harkless
No problem. Super excited to have you on it. What I wanted to do is to kind of kick everything off was rewind the clock a little bit here, a little bit more on how you got started with all the awesome work that you're doing and what led you to kind of come here.
02:19 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
And well, since I was very young, I've always been very much interested in history. And it has been, let's say, my hobby. And I've learned, you know, from early on from my father, who was a politician, essentially to learn from great historical people. Now, in my academic career, I went into marketing, but the point is, you have a lot of leadership positions there as well, professional organizations, journals at the different universities I worked, and so on.
And then a couple of years ago, it kind of hit upon me and essentially how leadership, which I had done a lot in practice, actually, how many parallels there were with marketing because we're both talking about trying to get other people to say to follow, you know, what you would like them to do, they may be purchasing your product to follow your ideas and you lead, etc. Combining marketing and leadership and infusing them with historical knowledge, which is, let's say, all the free time that I have since I was perhaps 8 or 9 or so, I read history, I try to integrate them in this new book and to derive lessons for us today here in 2021.
03:36 – Gresham Harkless
Nice. I absolutely love that. I think it's so powerful to be able to do that. I think so many times we forget that a lot of the lessons that we can learn are from the past and from history. So that's why I love that, you know, we get the opportunity to really, you know, learn as much on how to be better leaders. And of course, learn that from the history and information from the past. And so I wanted to hear a little bit more, you know, about your book and how you work with the clients that you have, could you take us through a little bit more on what we can find in the book and how exactly that works?
04:02 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
Yeah. So what I do in the book is I identify based on leadership work, 7 different leadership styles, meaning essentially certain behavioral patterns that you find in people. And then I illustrate and deepen our insight into each of the leadership styles with a couple of historical examples. Washington or Margaret Thatcher Franklin Roosevelt and other people. And people who have faced tremendous challenges in their lives and who had to overcome sexism, racism, classism, and all kinds of other things. And that made courageous decisions that really changed history. And we can learn from that. We can learn from those principles here and now, just as, And that is, I think, very important to understand how these leaders learned from each other.
Let me give you 1 example. Many people would agree that Three of the greatest leaders in the 20th century were Mahatma Gandhi from India, a freedom fighter in India, Martin Luther King, and President Nelson Mandela, the first Democratic president of South Africa. Now it's interesting that Dr. King's insights on how to fight racism came from hearing what Gandhi had done in India. And he is very open about it. He said, now I understood how I could do it. And then he adapted to the American context. But very importantly, he always gave Gandhi the honor of giving him essentially the light.
Now what we see is that very recently, just I mean last week, the new senator from Georgia, he is a pastor of the church in Atlanta where Dr. King was at 1 time the pastor and he acknowledges a lot of let's say wisdom how to fight for good things from Dr. King. So what we see here is, let's face it, the moment that people believe, well, apparently Mandela could learn something from I don't know, I'm much better than Mandela. King could learn something from Gandhi. Well, actually, you know, King is not really an insightful man. I mean, I can do it all myself. King perhaps wasn't so smart. I am. I think actually most people would say this is pretty crazy. If people like Mandela, if people like King, if they say I learned a lot from previous examples, why should we not?
06:52 – Gresham Harkless
I wanted to ask you now for what I call your secret sauce. And it could be for you personally or your book or a combination of both, but what do you feel kind of sets it apart or you apart and makes it unique?
07:03 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
Well, I think what I won't say is what sets me apart. I will say what sets the book apart is that it straddles history and leadership. Biographies are very popular, But the point is a biography is often 800, or 900 pages long, which is kind of really long, and it isn't written to draw out the leadership lessons. And it is still only 1 person, however valuable that may be. Leadership books, many of them are full of hot air. They are war stories. They are stories about, you know, I did this so great and I did that so great. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, it's not so nice. I mean, the boss of Jack Welch, you know, he was seen as the greatest manager on earth. I mean, he ran essentially General Electric into the ground in a sense, he built a framework that was built on hot air.
Zuckerberg with Facebook, I mean, has gotten a lot of flak. He was seen as the greatest visionary since Christ and it didn't work out so well. So many of these leadership books, they Unfortunately, they are very, I mean, I consider them to be mostly hot air. And what they also say, Gresh, is there is only 1 way to truth. Essentially, they're like a religion. There is only 1 path to eternal salvation. And that is you have to be a servant leader, you have to follow those 10 laws and they're also always going to get good or you have to be a charismatic leader, etc. And that is pure nonsense. Because if you happen to have that personality those particular skills, I mean, that is fine. But many people are not charismatic, or they are not by nature a servant leader. And what I show in this book is, that is perfectly fine.
That is that, yes, In an ideal world, you have everything. Well, in an ideal world, I look like Brad Pitt. The point is that doesn't help us. That doesn't help the reader because they will never find themselves into the kind of person that will be such a huge gap between what they are and then what this ideal point is that the guru is selling and that kind of motivated me with this this book because I've read a lot of leadership stuff and I've done it but also read it and in my studies, I did a lot of leadership and so on. It never resonated with me because I looked around and I saw, you know, actually, life is a lot more complex than what the senior and I see some guys, you know, being very successful leaders in business, or in churches, or in countries that are absolutely have nothing in common with a servant leader, say, you think about servant leader President Xi of China, you may or may not like him, but he's pretty successful.
Or Steve Jobs of Apple, I mean, a servant leader, I mean, he was very dictatorial. Apparently, he was very successful too. So the point is there are many ways to roam and that was what interested me. So in this book, if you read this book you will find things that will resonate with your qualities, with your personality, with your things. And as General Holt writes in the forward to the book, and he's a very experienced, a very senior general in the United States Air Force, he agreed with me in that he said, you cannot become the person that you are not, but you can improve upon the person that you are. And I think that is a very deep insight and my book is about that.
10:43 – Gresham Harkless
Awesome, Awesome. I absolutely love that JB. And also often I'll say if you run your own race, you can never lose. It's when we get caught running somebody else's race that we end up losing. And I think that I love that the book is kind of like a toolbox. I guess you can say you pick the tool that works best with you that you can leverage and use the best in order to be successful and be a great leader. So I wanted to switch gears a little bit and I wanted to ask you what I call a CEO hack. So this could be like an Apple book or have it that you have. What's something that makes you more effective and efficient?
11:13 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
In my own life, what makes me more effective is I have done actually these leadership tests that I've done in my book. I have applied those to myself. So I developed those tests based on my work in psychometrics, it's mathematical psychology. So I developed these self-assessment tests. And then I did the test myself. And actually, I found some pretty interesting things, things that I know that, hey, actually, I'm a little different than what I thought I would be. I did not always like, what I found. But when I thought my first point was that this Then the second point is, well, actually, perhaps there is some truth in it and better work on it.
And so what I found was eye-opening is I developed those tests based on, you know, the kind of knowledge they have, the test constructions, et cetera, that I've done for multiple decades. Then I applied them to myself. Even though I developed the test myself, I learned new things about myself. Not all of it was what I would have liked to see, but that is also leadership, that you accept sometimes things that are not so nice, and then you work on them.
12:28 – Gresham Harkless
What would you consider to be what I call your CEO nugget? So this could be a word of wisdom or a piece of advice. It might be something in your book or it might be something if you were to happen to a time machine you might tell your younger business self.
12:39 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I would say for CEOs and also for their people, What I find is there are 2 things that I do find are clearly related to impactful leadership. The first is to have grit. To have essentially the motivation and also the resilience the focus to overcome adversity, which we all are going to run into in life. A second thing that I have found is people who are true, I mean, the most impactful leaders are people that have an overarching goal for, what they want to achieve in life.
13:28 – Gresham Harkless
I wanted to ask you now my absolute favorite question, which is the definition of what it means to be a CEO. And we're hoping to have different quote-unquote CEOs on the show. So JB, what does being a CEO mean to you?
13:37 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I think that we have, being a CEO is, is formally speaking, say the leader of a company in my view, the really meaningful, impactful CEO is not a caretaker, but has a true vision for the company where to go and has the ability to get the organization into the direction that they want to achieve.
14:06 – Gresham Harkless
JB, truly appreciate that definition. I appreciate your time even more. What I want to do is pass you the mic, so to speak, just to see if there's anything additional you can let our readers and listeners know. And of course, how best they can get a hold of you, get a copy of the book, and hear about all the awesome things that you're working on.
14:20 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
And so when I said earlier that these 2 things that my work as as as Joan, I mean both practical, but also in the book is the vision and the grid. If listeners are wondering how am I doing on those things and there are, you know, measurement instruments in the appendix of the book so that you can just in the safety of your own room answer the questions truthfully and identify whether you are lacking there or not. So you can assess these things with yourself. The final thing that I want to say about the vision thing and about the CEOs, if I may, gracious the following. If I look it is very important to attract the young, the best, and the brightest.
Our MBA students, for example, if they could choose between working for Tesla, a company with a clear vision, you know, clearly it's clear what they're standing for, what they're doing, versus working for General Motors. We do respect General Motors, but I don't think there would be a single person who would prefer GM to Tesla. So there is a thing, a vision is good for the company, for the employees, current employees, and for the shareholders. It's also good to attract the best and the brightest.
15:48 – Gresham Harkless
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when you have that singularity of vision and you're able to express that, it comes out so well, not to the people that are within the organization, but also to the people that are outside the organization, maybe even wanting to be a part of that. And so I absolutely love that you covered that in your book. For people who want to get a copy of that, what's the best way for them to do that?
16:06 – Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
The easiest ways to purchase on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, or any other bookstore online, are probably a lot easier than going to a physical bookstore.
16:19 – Gresham Harkless
Yes, absolutely. To make that even easier, we'll have the links and information and the show notes as well as your information. But I definitely appreciate you JB again, and I hope you have a phenomenal rest of the day.
16:28 – Outro
Thank you for listening to the I AM CEO Podcast powered by Blue 16 Media. Tune in next time and visit us at iamceo.co I AM CEO is not just a phrase, it's a community. Be sure to follow us on social media and subscribe to our podcast on iTunes Google Play and everywhere you listen to podcasts, SUBSCRIBE, and leave us a five-star rating grab CEO gear at www.ceogear.co. This has been the I AM CEO Podcast with Gresham Harkless. Thank you for listening.
00:30 - Intro
Do you want to learn effective ways to build relationships, generate sales, and grow your business from successful entrepreneurs, startups, and CEOs without listening to a long, long, long interview? If so, you've come to the right place. Gresham Harkless values your time and is ready to share with you precisely the information you're in search of. This is the I AM CEO Podcast.
00:56 - Gresham Harkless
Hello, Hello, Hello. This is Gresh from the I AM CEO podcast and I have a very special guest on the show today. I have Jan Benedict Steenkamp of JBSteenkamp.com. JB, it's awesome to have you on the show.
01:07 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I'm glad to be there, Gash.
01:09 - Gresham Harkless: No problem. Super excited to have you on as well, too. And before we jump in, I want to read a little bit more about JB so you can hear about all the awesome things that he's doing. JB is a Knox Massey Distinguished Professor of Marketing at the University of North Carolina's Kenan Flagler Business School. In a recent Stanford University study, he was ranked in the top 0.1 across all Sciences. JB has written several books for business practitioners, his most recent 1 being Time to Lead, Lessons for Today's Leaders from the Bold Decisions that Changed History.
In today's time of global crisis and obvious lack of faith in leaders at all levels, more than ever, we need to and can learn from the great men and women in the recent and more distant past who have faced much greater challenges. He has given executive seminars and guest lectures on all continents to a multitude of organizations including the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School. JB, are you ready to speak to the I AM CEO community?
02:03 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I am absolutely ready. Thank you for having me on the show.
02:06 - Gresham Harkless
No problem. Super excited to have you on it. What I wanted to do is to kind of kick everything off was rewind the clock a little bit here, a little bit more on how you got started with all the awesome work that you're doing and what led you to kind of come here.
02:19 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
And well, since I was very young, I've always been very much interested in history. And it has been, let's say, my hobby. And I've learned, you know, from early on from my father, who was a politician, essentially to learn from great historical people. Now, in my academic career, I went into marketing, but the point is, you have a lot of leadership positions there as well, professional organizations, journals at the different universities I worked, and so on.
And then a couple of years ago, it kind of hit upon me and essentially how leadership, which I had done a lot in practice, actually, how many parallels there were with marketing because we're both talking about trying to get other people to say to follow, you know, what you would like them to do, they may be purchasing your product to follow your ideas and you lead, etc. Combining marketing and leadership and infusing them with historical knowledge, which is, let's say, all the free time that I have since I was perhaps 8 or 9 or so, I read history, I try to integrate them in this new book and to derive lessons for us today here in 2021.
03:36 - Gresham Harkless
Nice. I absolutely love that. I think it's so powerful to be able to do that. I think so many times we forget that a lot of the lessons that we can learn are from the past and from history. So that's why I love that, you know, we get the opportunity to really, you know, learn as much on how to be better leaders. And of course, learn that from the history and information from the past. And so I wanted to hear a little bit more, you know, about your book and how you work with the clients that you have, could you take us through a little bit more on what we can find in the book and how exactly that works?
04:02 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
Yeah. So what I do in the book is I identify based on leadership work, 7 different leadership styles, meaning essentially certain behavioral patterns that you find in people. And then I illustrate and deepen our insight into each of the leadership styles with a couple of historical examples. Washington or Margaret Thatcher Franklin Roosevelt and other people. And people who have faced tremendous challenges in their lives and who had to overcome sexism, racism, classism, and all kinds of other things. And that made courageous decisions that really changed history. And we can learn from that. We can learn from those principles here and now, just as, And that is, I think, very important to understand how these leaders learned from each other.
Let me give you 1 example. Many people would agree that 3 of the greatest leaders in the 20th century were Mahatma Gandhi from India, the freedom fighter in India, Martin Luther King, and President Nelson Mandela, the first Democratic president of South Africa. Now it's interesting that Dr. King's insights on how to fight racism came from hearing what Gandhi had done in India. And he is very open about it. He said, now I understood how I could do it. And then he adapted to the American context. But very importantly, he always gave Gandhi the honor of giving him essentially the light.
Now what we see is that very recently, just I mean last week, the new senator from Georgia, he is a pastor of the church in Atlanta where Dr. King was at 1 time the pastor and he acknowledges a lot of let's say wisdom how to fight for good things from Dr. King. So what we see here is, let's face it, the moment that people believe, well, apparently Mandela could learn something from I don't know, I'm much better than Mandela. King could learn something from Gandhi. Well, actually, you know, King is not really an insightful man. I mean, I can do it all myself. King perhaps wasn't so smart. I am. I think actually most people would say this is pretty crazy. If people like Mandela, if people like King, if they say I learned a lot from previous examples, why should we not?
06:52 - Gresham Harkless
I wanted to ask you now for what I call your secret sauce. And it could be for you personally or your book or a combination of both, but what do you feel kind of sets it apart or you apart and makes it unique?
07:03 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
Well, I think what I won't say is what sets me apart. I will say what sets the book apart is that it straddles history and leadership. Biographies are very popular, But the point is a biography is often 800, or 900 pages long, which is kind of really long, and it isn't written to draw out the leadership lessons. And it is still only 1 person, however valuable that may be. Leadership books, many of them are full of hot air. They are war stories. They are stories about, you know, I did this so great and I did that so great. Unfortunately, a couple of years later, it's not so nice. I mean, the boss of Jack Welch, you know, he was seen as the greatest manager on earth. I mean, he ran essentially General Electric into the ground in a sense, he built a framework that was built on hot air.
Zuckerberg with Facebook, I mean, has gotten a lot of flak. He was seen as the greatest visionary since Christ and it didn't work out so well. So many of these leadership books, they Unfortunately, they are very, I mean, I consider them to be mostly hot air. And what they also say, Gresh, is there is only 1 way to truth. Essentially, they're like a religion. There is only 1 path to eternal salvation. And that is you have to be a servant leader, you have to follow those 10 laws and they're also always going to get good or you have to be a charismatic leader, etc. And that is pure nonsense. Because if you happen to have that personality those particular skills, I mean, that is fine. But many people are not charismatic, or they are not by nature a servant leader. And what I show in this book is, that is perfectly fine.
That is that, yes, In an ideal world, you have everything. Well, in an ideal world, I look like Brad Pitt. The point is that doesn't help us. That doesn't help the reader because they will never find themselves into the kind of person that will be such a huge gap between what they are and then what this ideal point is that the guru is selling and that kind of motivated me with this this book because I've read a lot of leadership stuff and I've done it but also read it and in my studies, I did a lot of leadership and so on. It never resonated with me because I looked around and I saw, you know, actually, life is a lot more complex than what the senior and I see some guys, you know, being very successful leaders in business, or in churches, or in countries that are absolutely have nothing in common with a servant leader, say, you think about servant leader President Xi of China, you may or may not like him, but he's pretty successful.
Or Steve Jobs of Apple, I mean, a servant leader, I mean, he was very dictatorial. Apparently, he was very successful too. So the point is there are many ways to roam and that was what interested me. So in this book, if you read this book you will find things that will resonate with your qualities, with your personality, with your things. And as General Holt writes in the forward to the book, and he's a very experienced, a very senior general in the United States Air Force, he agreed with me in that he said, you cannot become the person that you are not, but you can improve upon the person that you are. And I think that is a very deep insight and my book is about that.
10:43 - Gresham Harkless
Awesome, Awesome. I absolutely love that JB. And also often I'll say if you run your own race, you can never lose. It's when we get caught running somebody else's race that we end up losing. And I think that I love that the book is kind of like a toolbox. I guess you can say you pick the tool that works best with you that you can leverage and use the best in order to be successful and be a great leader. So I wanted to switch gears a little bit and I wanted to ask you what I call a CEO hack. So this could be like an Apple book or have it that you have. What's something that makes you more effective and efficient?
11:13 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
In my own life, which makes me more effective is I have done actually these leadership tests that I've in my book. I have applied those to myself. So I developed those tests based on my work in psychometrics, it's mathematical psychology. So I developed these self-assessment tests. And then I did the test myself. And actually, I found some pretty interesting things, things that I know that, hey, actually, I'm a little different than what I thought I would be. I did not always like, what I found. But when I thought my first point was that this clearly Then the second point is, well, actually, perhaps there is some truth in it, and better work on it.
And so what I found was eye-opening is I developed those tests based on, you know, the kind of knowledge they have, the test constructions, et cetera, that I've done for multiple decades. Then I applied them to myself. Even though I developed the test myself, I learned new things about myself. Not all of it was what I would have liked to see, but that is also leadership, that you accept sometimes things that are not so nice, and then you work on them.
12:28 - Gresham Harkless
What would you consider to be what I call your CEO nugget? So this could be a word of wisdom or a piece of advice. It might be something in your book or it might be something if you were to happen to a time machine you might tell your younger business self.
12:39 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I would say for CEOs and also for their people, What I find is there are 2 things that I do find are clearly related to impactful leadership. The first is to have grit. To have essentially the motivation and also the resilience and the focus to overcome adversity, which we all are going to run into in life. A second thing that I have found is people who are true, I mean, the most impactful leaders are people that have an overarching goal for, what they want to achieve in life.
13:28 - Gresham Harkless
I wanted to ask you now my absolute favorite question, which is the definition of what it means to be a CEO. And we're hoping to have different quote-unquote CEOs on the show. So JB, what does being a CEO mean to you?
13:37 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
I think that we have, being a CEO is, is formally speaking, say the leader of a company in my view, the really meaningful, impactful CEO is not a caretaker, but has a true vision for the company where to go and has the ability to get the organization into the direction that they want to achieve.
14:06 - Gresham Harkless
JB, truly appreciate that definition. I appreciate your time even more. What I want to do is pass you the mic, so to speak, just to see if there's anything additional you can let our readers and listeners know. And of course, how best they can get a hold of you, get a copy of the book, and hear about all the awesome things that you're working on.
14:20 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
And so when I said earlier that these 2 things that my work as as as Joan, I mean both practical, but also in the book is the vision and the grid. If listeners are wondering how am I doing on those things and there are, you know, measurement instruments in the appendix of the book so that you can just in the safety of your own room answer the questions truthfully and identify whether you are lacking there or not. So you can assess these things with yourself. The final thing that I want to say about the vision thing and about the CEOs, if I may, gracious the following. If I look it is very important to attract the young, the best, and the brightest.
Our MBA students, for example, if they could choose between working for Tesla, a company with a clear vision, you know, clearly it's clear what they're standing for, what they're doing, versus working for General Motors. We do respect General Motors, but I don't think there would be a single person who would prefer GM to Tesla. So there is a thing, a vision is good for the company, for the employees, current employees, and for the shareholders. It's also good to attract the best and the brightest.
15:48 - Gresham Harkless
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that when you have that singularity of vision and you're able to express that, it comes out so well, not to the people that are within the organization, but also to the people that are outside the organization, maybe even wanting to be a part of that. And so I absolutely love that you covered that in your book. For people who want to get a copy of that, what's the best way for them to do that?
16:06 - Jan-Benedict (“JB”) Steenkamp
The easiest ways to purchase on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble, or any other bookstore online, are probably a lot easier than going to a physical bookstore.
16:19 - Gresham Harkless
Yes, absolutely. To make that even easier, we'll have the links and information and the show notes as well as your information. But I definitely appreciate you JB again, and I hope you have a phenomenal rest of the day.
16:28 - Outro
Thank you for listening to the I AM CEO Podcast powered by Blue 16 Media. Tune in next time and visit us at iamceo.co I AM CEO is not just a phrase, it's a community. Be sure to follow us on social media and subscribe to our podcast on iTunes Google Play and everywhere you listen to podcasts, SUBSCRIBE, and leave us a five-star rating grab CEO gear at www.ceogear.co. This has been the I AM CEO Podcast with Gresham Harkless. Thank you for listening.
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