IAM488- Consultant and Podcaster Advises the Government on Minimum Wage

Simon worked for 30 years in employee relations but in 2016 decided to set up his own consultancy, Makes You Think. He is based in London, UK, and in the past has acted as an adviser to the British government and the European Union. He is currently also a member of the Low Pay Commission, advising the government on minimum wage issues, and has written regularly for a number of newspapers, magazines, and websites. He has been podcasting for 10 years.

• CEO Hack: Down-times for work-life balance
• CEO Nugget: (1) Always have your mind open for opportunities (2) Be honest
• CEO Defined: Freedom and responsibility

Website: https://www.makes-you-think.com/

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/simonsapper
Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonsapper

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Transcription:

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Intro 0:02

Do you want to learn effective ways to build relationships, generate sales, and grow your business from successful entrepreneurs, startups, and CEOs without listening to a long, long, long interview? If so, you've come to the right place. Gresham Harkless values your time and is ready to share with you precisely the information you're in search of. This is the I AM CEO Podcast.

Gresham Harkless 0:29

Hello, hello, hello, this is Gresh from the I am CEO podcast and I have a very special guest on the show today, as Simon Sapper of Makes You Think, Simon, it's awesome to have you on the show.

Simon Sapper 0:38

It's great to be here, Gresham, thanks very much for the invitation.

Gresham Harkless 0:41

No problem. The pleasure is definitely all mine. And what I wanted to do is just read a little bit more about Simon so you can hear about all the awesome things that he's doing. Simon worked for 30 years in employee relations, but in 2016 decided to set up his own consultancy Makes You Think. He's based in London, UK, and in the past has acted as an adviser to the British government and the European Union. He is currently also a member of the Low Pay Commission advising the government on minimum wage issues and has written regularly for a number of newspapers, magazines, and websites. He has been podcasting for over 10 years. Simon, are you ready to speak to the I AM CEO Community?

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Simon Sapper 1:13

I'm looking forward to it.

Gresham Harkless 1:14

Awesome, let's do it. So to kick everything off, I wanted to hear a little bit more about your your CEO story, what led you to get started with a business, your podcast, and all the awesome things you're working on.

Simon Sapper 1:22

Well, as you can probably tell from my bio, my mission is to help organizations, especially membership-based organizations work better. So that's a lot of kinds of Third Sector non-profit campaigning groups, from labor organizations to sports community clubs. And instead of doing this for other people in 2016, I decided I wanted to try and do it for myself. So the way I work is I look, I look to increase the capacity and improve the leverage of the organizations I work with.

And I do this in two ways. First, I look at their governance, their structure, how decisions are made, how they service, and their membership. And then second, I make messages clear. And that's where the podcasting stuff comes in. Because podcasts are not really used that widely in some sections of the UK economy, I can bring my expertise to bear to help people get their internal and external messages out more effectively. And as a result of all that I kind of get asked to review a range of work-related issues, as you might expect.

Gresham Harkless 2:14

Now, that makes so much sense. And I think that and I don't know, if you find this, you know when you're working with these organizations, do you find like sometimes when they're working, I guess in the business or in the organization, and it's become a little bit harder to kind of identify lack of sometimes simplicity and messaging and things like that because they're so close. And they're doing it on a regular everyday basis. So a lot of times they need that kind of third-party perspective so that they can see those gaps or opportunities or options or options for clarity as well.

Simon Sapper 2:44

That's absolutely right. Absolutely. Right. I mean, I don't know if you have this phrase in the US. But in the UK, we say you sometimes can't see the wood for the trees, you're surrounded, you know? And I do find it's not a surprise, is it that actually the organization's most you can work most effectively, where you can make the biggest difference with are those organizations who for various reasons, or good reasons, that can't get a sense of perspective. And as an outsider who's got knowledge and experience and skills, you can come in and say Well hang on a minute, take a step back. And we thought about doing things a different way.

Gresham Harkless 3:14

Exactly. Yeah. And it makes so much sense. And I think that you know, and I think Steve Jobs even has this quote where he says about think design or complexity, where a lot of times to get things to be simple. You really have to work on it. It's kind of counterintuitive, because a lot of times you think yeah, the first thing you do is simple. But really, you have to work to get to simplicity and clarity.

Simon Sapper 3:32

Absolutely.

Gresham Harkless 3:34

Nice. And I know you touched on it a little bit, but I want to hear a little bit more about how you work with your clients. Can you take us through exactly like how that happened from the beginning until you start working together?

Simon Sapper 3:42

Well, I've kind of put up two golden rules about this. The first is that you have to go where to people are not where you want them to be You have to start off with where they're at, rather than where you think they should be where you want them to get to. That's the first thing. The second thing is to remember, that it's not about you, you're the catalyst, you're not the you're not the beneficiary. In that sense, you're not, you know, you must keep a clear sense of perspective to recognize that it's not about your ego or your sense of satisfaction, it's where the client, where the people that you're being paid to do it and to do a job for.

So it's a three-step process. I want to meet with the client, I want to listen to what they've got to say, and I want to work out with them, what deliverables are possible. And of course, when you're talking about what kind of roles are possible, it's a combination of what they want, and what you know, you can provide. And sometimes that's dead easy. Sometimes it's just a phone call or a quick chat. Other times you need to make two or three or even more occasions to get a real understanding and build up a kind of rapport that produces the confidence for people to hire me.

Gresham Harkless 4:40

Yeah, that makes so much sense and I love it, especially the fact when you talked about it and I use it I think it's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I talk about it a lot. We're kind of beginning with the end of mind. And I think that a lot of times we forget that where you're kind of reverse engineering you figure out where you want to be then you work backwards from there.

But then, you know, I especially me being like especially in the marketing world, as well, so often we hear and see these really awesome things. Oh, I really liked that mean, were they good for a really cool social media site and all these things, but we all can forget the people that we're trying to actually serve. And this actually kind of spoke to that second point that to get clarity on is that you were the conduit, we're how people are, you know, having, you know, great experience, a lot of times we forget that that person that we're actually doing everything for.

Simon Sapper 5:23

Absolutely. And of course, sometimes you don't see the full situation. At first glance, it's sometimes as you get to know the client better. The real issues, the real problems, the real barriers only become visible, then, of course, you've got to take it a step at a time. Yeah, you can have an overall goal in mind, you must have yet the end in mind, you can't rush to get there not least because your work might take you down a different track to the one that you're expected to follow.

Gresham Harkless 5:48

Yeah, absolutely. And kind of going back to what we were talking about just you have to work out just as far as messaging but also understanding exactly what those pain points are, and how you can solve those a lot of times it doesn't happen on that first question that you asked, if you ask somebody, what's your pain points? They'll say, Oh, well, it's my knee. And it might not even be their knee and maybe something completely different. So you have to get those follow-up questions?

Simon Sapper 6:07

Absolutely. You got to keep an open mind as well, of course.

Gresham Harkless 6:10

Exactly, So now I wanted to ask you, you might have already touched on this, but what I call your secret sauce, and it's for you personally or for your organization or your podcast, what do you feel kind of sets you apart and makes you unique?

Simon Sapper 6:19

Well, it's because I'm good. I'm sorry to be that. But you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't have survived for 30 years in this field unless I didn't know what I was doing. And unless I learned from my experiences, and you know, the setbacks as well as the successes, but you know, in modesty apart, I think it's because, over that period of time, I've worked in the private sector, I've worked in the public sector, once in the voluntary sector, I've worked across a range of industries, I've worked at the local level, national level, international level, I've kind of built up, you know, a lot of experience, you know, a very, very well populated database about things that work, things that don't work, what the nuances are different situations, different employment relations situations, I kind of, I kind of want a t-shirt, I've eaten the pie, I've walked the walk.

And I, you know, you never stop learning. And I find I never stop learning. So even though, you know, I've got a, I've got a backstory, that's the that's helpful for me to do a good job for my current and future clients. Each person I work with, I always take away something new, and I you know, assimilate, the new learning into what is already there.

Gresham Harkless 7:27

Nice, I definitely appreciate that. And definitely, you know, when I'm here and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like I think so many times we're looking for that, I guess that magic bullet, so to speak on what makes us unique, what makes the same a lot of times you cannot replace the overall experience that somebody has, and you're having so much experience and being able to, as you say, you know, have that experience with so many different aspects with so many different clients, I think there's there's something to be said about being good from just having put in the work and put in the time and kind of chocolate the tree over and over and over again so that you have that expertise. And you sit down with a client that you're able to know because you've been in the field and worked with clients on so many different levels for so long.

Simon Sapper 8:06

Well, that's true. But each situation has its unique chemistry. And of course, you know, you're not, you're never going to get on with everyone you meet or everyone you're you're trying to strike up a business relationship with you have to recognize that, of course, but there is a unique chemistry that applies to each situation. And, you know, I hope that I mean that you have to make yourself easy and available to work with that's part of it doesn't it go back to what we were talking about, about saying it's not all about you? You're the conduit, you've got to be an effective, accessible conduit. And by the way, I've got to say I'm sure some of your listeners will appreciate this. You've no idea how difficult it is for a Brit to come on to a show like yours and say, Well, it's because I'm good. That's so counterintuitive to us.

Gresham Harkless 8:47

But facts are always facts. I mean it again, I say like It's like Malcolm Gladwell is like 10,000 hours, a lot of times when people reach a level of mastery and success, you think that they wake up and it happened, but it's happened over the years. It didn't happen when you first started. So I don't definitely take it that way. And I'm sure there are a lot of other people who are listening to this podcast as well, that would answer the question exactly as you would. So I definitely appreciate that. So I wanted to switch gears a little bit. And I want to ask you for what I call a CEO hack. So this could be an apple book or a habit that you have, but what's something that makes you more effective and efficient?

Simon Sapper 9:22

Well, I think the thing that I hold very dear to my heart is to have an effective work-life balance. So that's the thing as it as it were. So you know, I scheduled kind of downtime as rigorously and as strictly as I should your business appointments because otherwise it just gets squeezed out of my diary. And I find that I'm not as effective if I don't have that work-life balance. Now I know that work-life balance is a luxury for some people, but for many people, if you can't at all do it. I would I would strongly recommend it. It certainly works for me and I think there's a kind of personal story to this in the sense that my father, his work was his life. And so when he stopped working. He's kind of, there wasn't anything to counterbalance it. And he was, he was depressed in his later years. And I thought, No, I don't want to be like that.

Gresham Harkless 10:08

Now I want to ask you for what I call a CEO nugget. And this is a word of wisdom or piece of advice. Or if you could happen to be a time machine, what would you tell your younger business self?

Simon Sapper 10:16

Okay, I've got two nuggets that come to mind immediately. The first is, first is a variation on a quote from a Pastor who said, that a new pastor, a sort of scientist from the 1800s, chance visits the prepared mind, but I prefer to think of it as opportunity because it's the prepared mind, you should always have your mind open to see what opportunities or possibilities are just around the corner, or just step out, step out in front of you don't, don't close your mind, just because things that things are different, unusual or strange, or unknown, because that's the first thing opportunity to visit the prepared mind, be prepared.

And the second thing is, be honest, be really, really honest with yourself. And it's, it's one thing to have a lot of enthusiasm, especially when you're younger, and you're starting out, and to, to kind of promise all sorts of everything you know, but if you promise things you can't deliver, and you know, you can't deliver, that's really well, it's not a smart move. It's not a smart move, because you feel bad, you let down a client because of the ramp, your brand reputation, any good. So be really, really honest. And sometimes people need help from other people to, to get to that level of honesty. But don't kid yourself. Don't deceive yourself, because because you'll be the one that loses out most of all because of it.

Gresham Harkless 11:30

Absolutely I absolutely love that quote, you know, opportunity versus prepare, man, because a lot of times, especially like when you I think when you I guess sometimes accept that entrepreneurial gene that a lot of us have, or you start to see, and you work in a business, just see the opportunities everywhere. But just as you said, it doesn't just come it comes because you've prepared your mind, because it's through an action or repeated action when you start to see those things because you start thinking towards that. And I definitely would agree with you. You know, honestly, it's definitely in this day and age, especially because there's so much accessibility to people and organizations and businesses.

A lot of times you, you don't have to be honest, I guess you can say but if you're not honest, sometimes you'll get found out whether that be you know, putting together whatever you said you're going to do and didn't fulfill or in saying you're something and somebody finds something that's not in alignment. So I think it's you know, that's why, you know, the authenticity and brand. Personal Brand, especially is becoming such a big thing, because we have so much accessibility with this technology.

Simon Sapper 12:21

I think you're I mean, it's it's much, much better to under promise and over deliver, over-promised under deliver.

Gresham Harkless 12:27

Absolutely. So now I wanted to ask you my absolute favorite question, which is the definition of what it means to be a CEO. And we're hoping to have different, quote-unquote, CEOs on the show. So Simon, what does being a CEO mean to you?

Simon Sapper 12:36

Well, for me, it's, everything starts and stops with me. Right? It's not I mean, I don't mean that. I don't mean that I'm all-powerful, or whatever. What I mean is, if you're working for someone else, then you contribute to something or will you receive or process something? But actually, I've got a business idea or an idea for a new podcast series or a new approach to help a client, I have the idea, I have to build it up, I have to, I have to discuss it and develop it, sell it. And I get the consequences of that, whether it's good or bad.

That's of secondary importance. It begins if you're a designer if you're a business person, you'll be an entrepreneur, it begins and ends with you. And that sense, of having the complete cycle, a sort of holistic view on activity, is something that I'm really enjoying, especially having been in an employee situation for so long, I'm really enjoying that sort of freedom and responsibility. And, you know, I'm hoping very much that will continue, I'm expecting it.

Gresham Harkless 13:35

Nice. So I definitely, you know, appreciate that perspective, just because just as you said, a lot of times, if you know, we see like something's not being done, as well as it could be, or there's not a podcast created, or there's not a blog, or there's this app that needs to be created, we can create that and it begins kind of like that, you said, you can actually create and build that and grow that and and as you said, it's an incredible, you know, responsibility and incredible kind of step for people to take, but you're able to do that, and you have the power to do that.

So I think that is an awesome definition. And I appreciate that, and I appreciate your time even more Simon, what I want to do is pass you the mic so to speak, just to see if there's anything additional, you can let our readers and listeners know. And then of course, how best they can get ahold of you subscribe to the podcast and find out all the things you guys are working on.

Simon Sapper 14:14

Well, well Gresham, thank you very much as I say for inviting me to join you, especially from such a long distance away from where we are at the moment, as I look at it, but as I look out of my window at the moment, I can see, I can see it's a great day. It's raining, it looks really miserable. But I would go back to that they're saying that opportunity visits, the prepared mind if you can if you can keep an open mind and look at the world around you. And you think you think actually that's not quite right. I could do that better. There's a gap in the market. Don't be put off. Don't be put off, give it a go. If you can, because unless you try, you're never going to know.

And I realized I'm very lucky in the sense that I have a degree of security and and I have flexibility and choices that not everyone else has but I'm sure there are an awful lot of people who didn't have that choice, but perhaps don't exercise it. And it would be a shame. If you got to the end of your, you've got into your old age and you look back and you have regrets. And we showed them that don't have regrets. Don't ever regret this, you know, life's Life's too short. If you've got an idea, try and pursue it. And if you want to, if your listeners would like to talk to me or get ahold of me, then they're very welcome to drop me a line. My email address is Simon@makes-you- think.com. Simonmakesyouthink.com. And I'd be very happy to pick up any of the themes that we've spoken about over the last 15 minutes or so we're even if people are interested in perhaps talking about the possibility that's working together to solve some issue or some problem in their work or their workplace. I'd be only too happy to start those discussions.

Gresham Harkless 15:47

Awesome, awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Again, Simon, we will have those links and information in the show notes. And just as you said, a lot of times if you prepare your mind you'll see an opportunity may not look the same assignments may not look the same as me. But a lot of times we have more things at our disposal than sometimes we will give ourselves credit for so even if it doesn't look like you know, your podcasts or it doesn't look like my podcast. If you have an idea to start a podcast or start a business, start a blog, whatever it is, you might be able to do it an entirely different way but you can still you know, take those steps because you have that prepared mind and you're prepared for the opportunities that you'll see. So thank you so much again, Simon I truly appreciate you again and hope you have a phenomenal rest of the day.

Outro 16:23

Thank you for listening to the I AM CEO Podcast powered by Blue 16 Media. Tune in next time and visit us at iamceo.co I AM CEO is not just a phrase, it's a community. Be sure to follow us on social media and subscribe to our podcast on iTunes Google Play and everywhere you listen to podcasts, SUBSCRIBE, and leave us a five-star rating grab CEO gear at www.ceogear.co. This has been the I AM CEO Podcast with Gresham Harkless. Thank you for listening.

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